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Старый 18.04.2015, 15:58   #1
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По умолчанию Dream yoga in taoist view.

What is view on this school and legit traditions of taoism about dream yoga/lucid dreaming.

I heard that it can disturb the shen, but not sure about. What about early shamanic traditions who practiced spirit travel to know practices of the tao?
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Старый 18.04.2015, 22:13   #2
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Hello, Christian.

Regarding dream yoga as far as I know there are NO such practices in taoist tradition as lucid dreaming because this practice disperses one's yan qi and increases yin shen. But the goal of taoist alchemy is to increase yan qi and to eliminate abundant yin qi.

There is one special method in YuXianPai which is practiced in order to eliminate dreames during sleep time.
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Старый 19.04.2015, 11:03   #3
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Hello, Christian.

Regarding dream yoga as far as I know there are NO such practices in taoist tradition as lucid dreaming because this practice disperses one's yan qi and increases yin shen. But the goal of taoist alchemy is to increase yan qi and to eliminate abundant yin qi.

There is one special method in YuXianPai which is practiced in order to eliminate dreames during sleep time.
Can you elaborate in what sense you mean eliminate dreams during sleep time? I do not ask on method, but the effects like being blank state or just aware of sleeping and the body thru the night?
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Старый 19.04.2015, 13:34   #4
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Can you elaborate in what sense you mean eliminate dreams during sleep time? I do not ask on method, but the effects like being blank state or just aware of sleeping and the body thru the night?
It means that person who practices it, should not have dreams at all as far as I got it right. Also it shortens sleep time
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Старый 19.04.2015, 16:05   #5
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What is view on this school and legit traditions of taoism about dream yoga/lucid dreaming.

I heard that it can disturb the shen, but not sure about. What about early shamanic traditions who practiced spirit travel to know practices of the tao?
Hi Christian,
First of all, there is a difference between lucid dreaming and "spirit travel". Second, there is a difference between yin and yang shen, and thus there are different kinds of spirit travels.
Regarding your question, dream yoga and lucid dreaming are never used in the traditional Daoist schools.
Thanks,
Oleg
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Старый 20.04.2015, 02:22   #6
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Dear all,

I think also that in Daoism there is no dream Yoga but maybe some kind of lucid dreaming as this is question of awarness of conscioussnes out of the body.Many Zheng Yi school have various ways to work in dreams their Magic.It looks that there is Daoist method of sleeping.Look in Master Chen Tuan from Hua Shan and his daily dreamings,and I think there is specific position of the body when going to sleep(on the left side and it is sleeping Tiger).This kidn of work is expecialy good as preparation for Nei Dan as it removes blockages of Ego and daily sonscioussnes.

I hear that Yu Xian Pai teach: "Special methods of Yuxianpai School to practice in sleep.",but I dont know what this is exactly.

Blessings,

Daoserb
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Старый 20.04.2015, 07:02   #7
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Dear all,

I think also that in Daoism there is no dream Yoga but maybe some kind of lucid dreaming as this is question of awarness of conscioussnes out of the body.Many Zheng Yi school have various ways to work in dreams their Magic.It looks that there is Daoist method of sleeping.Look in Master Chen Tuan from Hua Shan and his daily dreamings,and I think there is specific position of the body when going to sleep(on the left side and it is sleeping Tiger).This kidn of work is expecialy good as preparation for Nei Dan as it removes blockages of Ego and daily sonscioussnes.

I hear that Yu Xian Pai teach: "Special methods of Yuxianpai School to practice in sleep.",but I dont know what this is exactly.
As it was mentioned before, the practices during sleep exist, but they have no relation to work with consciousness, ego or so-called "lucid dreaming". I'm translating a big article with debunking some myths about Chen Tuan's legacy, but so far please read this:

[This is a translation of D.A. Artemiev's post: http://forum.daode.ru/121010-post9.html ]
Question from Anton:
I understand that lucid dreaming have no relation to the alchemy. Have you encountered any information about this practice being used in some small methods of side schools? Or to paraphrase my question, to be understand correctly. The idea of lucid dreaming is absolutely foreign for daoist tradition, or it is foreign to the alchemy and schools, that preserved the method [of alchemy]?

D.A. Artemiev:

I am always honest with people, and if I encountered something similar, I would write. No, I haven't encountered. Even in a huge number of texts on Qigong, which I read once.

The fact is that in the treatise of Chen Tuan it clearly states that both wakefulness and sleep of layman is essentially an illusion. And why should we "practice" it, that is to enhance the illusion?

Hypothetically, I presume such a possibility (as with any training), but in practice this possibility is very small, because one way or another such things would cross [my researches] ...

Besides that, there is no even a character denoting "lucid dream", and in the case of Chinese tradition it is hard to imagine any better evidence
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Старый 20.04.2015, 09:00   #8
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It means that person who practices it, should not have dreams at all as far as I got it right. Also it shortens sleep time
Ah, when you replenish shen to the fullness then it happen, I understand.
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Старый 20.04.2015, 09:05   #9
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As seen here:http://forum.daode.ru/f29/perevod-st...deniyah-19462/

"Dispersion of delusions on the notions of dreaming, rest and movement in taoist tradition


From the end of the 90s, as a result of developing of the internet technologies, growth of the industry of self-developping and the lack of information on the taoist tradition, a big number of pseudo explanations on the notions of taoism had appeared. Such pseudo taoist masters and gourus during the 2000s have created and developped a big number of pseudo schools and have written a big number of books, in which they pretend that they are revealing the truth on the taoist tradition. In this article we'll try to explain the most important mistakes that are told and written all over the internet.
First mistake: It tells us that in taoist tradition exists some kind of “mastery of sleeping” or “lucid dreaming”
This crap was borrowed from the Castaneda's books where the techins of lucid dreaming were explained. As a consequence of lack of knowledge of chinese language, and especially of classic chinese language in which the most important texts are written, this guys on the basics of Castaneda's books made their own systems, which they positioned as taoist systems. One of this gyus was the creator of pseudo taoist system Zhendao. After our critic, they started to pretend that their “systems” inluded also the inner alchemy neidan as a part of lucid dreaming. Let us explain on the basics of the taoist texts that this guys are pretending to know what is the real attitude of taoism on the lucid dreaming and ont the sleeping itself.
Firstly, we'll take the classic text of Chen Tuan 華山十二睡功總訣 ( main explanations on the 12 steps of shuigong methods from the Huashan mountains ). We can observe that there is no such notion as lucid dreaming an sleeping mastery, there is only 睡功 shuigong which means practice during the sleeping period. You can ask us, why we have put the steps? It's because i've been studying this text during longtime, and I know that these practics are not isolated, they form a sequence. But let me show you the main part of the text, a lot of peoples who used Castaneda's books to create their “systems” are pretending that in this text we can found brief explanations on the lucid dreaming. In order, not to give the full translation I will explain the sense of the parts of the text:
夫 學道修真之士,若習 睡功玄訣者,于日間及夜靜無事之時,或一陽來複之候,端身正坐,叩齒三十六通,逐一喚集身中諸神,然後松寬衣帶而側臥之。訣在閉兌,目垂簾,赤龍頭抵上 腭,並膝收一足,十指如鈎,陰陽歸竅,是外日月交光也。然後一手掐劍訣掩生門,一手掐劍訣曲肱而枕之,以眼對鼻,鼻對生門,合齒,開天門,閉地,心目觀坎離會合,是日月交精也。功法如鹿之運督、鶴之養胎、龜之喘息。
In this part the decritption of preparation and the right stance for practice.
夫人之晝夜有一萬三千五百息,行八萬四千裏氣,是應天地造化,悉在玄關橐龠,使思慮歸于元神,藥也。爲體,外爲用。體則含精于,用則法光于外,使外打成一片,方是入道。工夫行到此際,六賊自然消滅,五行自然攢簇,火候自然升降,就真液,澆養靈根,故曰:玄牝通一口,睡之飲春酒,朝暮謹行持,真陽永不走。凡睡之功畢,起時揩摩心地,次揩兩眼,則心身舒暢。
In the second sequence Chen Tuan is telling us the importance of the periods of fire and the xuanguan.
行 住坐臥,大要聚氣凝 神,神住則氣住,氣住則精住,精住則行固。若神住則無思慮,氣住則無呼吸,精住則無淫欲。然後三元歸一,八脈返源,七寶無漏,血化爲膏,始得長生久視。修 真之要,性靜則神逸,心動則神疲。蓋神去則氣散,氣散則精耗,精耗則形枯,形枯則死矣。故世人之生死皆一夢幻,如至人則不然。至人無妄,無妄則無夢,苟有 夢,亦得其真,非情欲之夢也。故其心常明,神常澄湛,無來無去,不生不滅,安有此輪回哉?世人妄妄不息,情欲交熾,心被萬所染,神無一刻甯靜,茫茫乎晝亦夢也,夜亦夢也,寤亦夢也,寐亦夢也,臨命終時,一片情欲牽扯不斷,安得不趨入他途,投入異類,受此輪回,無有出期。自無始以來其性來去皆如此。
The third sequence is the most important, in this sequence he denies all this guys talking about lucid dreamnig.
“If the spirit shen is fixed, there will be no reflection, if the energy qi is fixed there will be no breathing. If the heart moves, the spirit shen is being tired and damaged. Thats why the life of ordinary people is a dream. A perfect man is not like them, he doesn't have illusions, if there are no illusions, there are no dreams. Even if he'll have a dream, he will gain the truth from it, there will not be a dream of passions and wonderings. An ordinary man is dreaming the day and night, whether he sleeps or not, until his death, getting involved in the wheel of samsara ”
故佛經雲:恩愛斷,生死斷也。今之世人,只以愛、欲、貪、嗔、癡爲樂,豈知樂是苦因,如蛾之戀燈,蠅之貪湯,蛾蠅不知自克其形,此乃人盜萬物,萬物盜人,一切由心之所造也。故心者,神之宅,神者,心之主。修行人修個什?無過精氣神三寶而已。神爲君,氣爲臣,精爲民。故五賊侵而精神耗亂,五賊泯而國泰民安,民安則無治可以長久。先要外伏魔精,安真性,煉精化氣,煉氣化神,煉神還,此是爲物歸三,三歸二,二歸一,一歸空,是爲仙道逆行,常靈常存。如塵世間衆生,日用則神化氣,氣化精,精化形,形化生。物是一生二,二生三,三生萬物,此乃人道順行,有生有死,其生死皆在心之所欲也。
In this sequence he speaks about reverse practice of immortals in alchemy, about jing, qi and shen, about 5 thieves described in the Huandi yinfujing
至于修仙之人,心要如不動,如龍之養珠,雞之抱卵,蜣螂之滾球,蜥[+]之吮子,蚌含明珠,兔子懷胎,鼈之射影,犀之望星。功到,則如禾之凝露,瓜之蒂,是神之運用。神者氣之母,精者氣之子。神氣相抱,精自歸源,凝結不散即嬰孩,由父母之所生也。妙在存神于斯中,始得二氣交感于庭,三華混一于元竅,聖胎成而真神蛻化,出離生死,超然成道。如此行持一百日,龜息三百日成丹,二年身輕氣靈,上開八門,牝孔及眉心一門,三年飛升,以達希夷。志虔恪,修持不怡,自有妙驗。故曰:工夫不到不方圓。有等修真之士,雖下苦功,未得真傳,以致忘本逐末,盲修瞎煉,或執頑空,或泥幻象,何異于癡貓守于空窟,終不得其鼠也。以上睡功秘法,天機之妙,務在真師心授,不得私意揣度。或得遇者,謹而行之,勿視非人,恐遭天譴,慎之!慎之!
In the last sequence he describes the main parts of practice of alchemy and in the end warns us:
“These secret methods of practice during the sleeping period and the secret and the art of heavenly mechanism will work only in the transmission of the true Teacher, they can't be estavlished by self thinking. If you'll have the chance to meet[such a teacher], start to diligently practice them. Such methods are forbidden to be learned from the scoundrels and bad guys. Fear the Heaven punishment and Be careful! Be careful!”
Other text on the 12 steps doesn't contain even such a character and speaks only about the alchemy practice.
一、毛玄漢降伏龍虎
心中元氣謂之龍,身中元精謂之虎。性定龍歸水,情忌虎隱山。二家和合了,名姓列仙班。
二、瞿上輔煉魂魄
砂中取汞爲之魂,水裏掏金爲之魄。天以日爲魂,地以月爲魄。日中尋兔髓,月取烏血。
三、麻衣真人和調真氣
調和真氣五朝元,心息相依念不偏。二物長居于戊己,虎龍盤結大丹圓。
四、胡東鄰運化陰陽
法天象地謂之體,負陰花陽謂之用。天地爲立基,陰陽運化機,這個捩子料得幾人知!
五、杜勝真陰陽複姤
陰極陽生爲之複,陽極陰生爲之姤。陰極陽來複,陽終姤又侵。學人明火候,撅地見天真。
六、王龍圖靜養火候
靜中陽動爲之爲火,地下雷轟爲之候。火本生于水,候乃陽來複。雷震攝天根,異風觀月窟。
七、康南岩守爐鼎
乾宮真陽謂之鼎,坤宮真土謂之爐。鼎在乾宮鑄,爐因坤土包。身心端正後,爐鼎自堅牢。
八、張怡堂煉成靈寶
萬神不散謂之靈,一念常存謂之寶。自存身中寶,施之便有靈;誠能含蓄得,放出大光明。
九、張玄玄牢拴猿馬
揩摩心地爲之沐,洗滌塵垢爲之浴。要得狂猿伏,先將劣馬擒。絲毫塵不染,神氣合乎心。
十、彭懶翁收放丹樞
入希夷門爲之收,出離迷境爲之放。亘古靈童子,神功妙莫量,放之彌法界,收則忝珠藏。
十一、譚自然廓然靈通
悟本知源爲之靈,廓然垂礙爲之通。識破娘生面,都無佛與仙。廓然元不礙,任取海成田。
十二、一陽出離生死
出離生死爲之了,行道飛升爲之當。打破鴻濛竅,方知象帝先。只斯爲了當,如是大羅仙。


In conclusion: in this classic texts there are no lucid dreamings, and they are speaking of scoundrels and bad guys who will try in the future to distort these texts. That's why they are warning us.


The second text:
蟄龍法 Chen Tuan “The method of sleeping dragon”
龍歸元海,陽潛於陰。人曰蟄龍,我卻蟄心。
默藏其用,息之深深。白雲高臥,世無知音。
As we can see, there is a description of practice of alchemy and not about the lucid dreaming, there are no characters that can meen this in chinese language.


Third text:
蟄龍吟 Zhand Sanfeng “The song about the sleeping dragon”
睡神仙,睡神仙,石根高臥忘其年,三光沉淪性自圓。氣氣歸玄竅,息息任天然。
莫散亂,須安恬,養得汞性兒圓,等待他鉛花現。
無走失,有防閒;真火候,運中間。
行七返,不艱難;煉九還,何嗟嘆。
靜觀龍虎戰場戰,暗把陰陽顛倒顛。
人言我是矇漢,我卻眠兮眠未眠。
學就了,真臥禪。養成了,真胎元。臥龍一起便升天。
此蟄法,是誰傳?曲肱而枕自尼山,樂在其中無人諳。
五龍飛躍出深潭,天將此法傳圖南。
圖南一派儔能繼?邋遢道人張豐仙。
As we can see there is no section where he speaks about lucid dreaming, only about the practice of alchemy.
And the last text:
詠蟄龍法 Lu Dongbin “The song about sleeping dragon”
高臥終南萬慮空,睡仙長臥白雲中。
夢魂暗入陰陽竅,呼吸潛施造化功。
真訣誰知藏混沌,道人先要學痴聾。
華山處士留眠法,今與倡明醒眾公。
In this text, Lu Dongbin is definitely disproving the sleeping mastery of the lucid dreaming, and telling “that those who will understand that the truly teachings are contained in the primordial chaos, the beginners should firstly learn about stupidity and indistintion...”


As we can see these texts aren't describing the practice of lucid dreaming like Castaneda, but are telling us only about practice of alchemy and only about it!
The second delusion is about pretending that taoism contains a sequence of practices about “mastery of stillness”.
This delusion comes from the a very great number of books about meditation, the guys who have created their pseudo taoists systems they were thinking like that”if in India and in Tibet people are sitting in meditation, so does people in China”. So, they are stating that in chinese tradition and especially in taoist tradition are the same practices which they are calling “mastery of stillness”. We can make a conclusion: it's all about the lack of real information on the real existant taoist tradition. We must say that taoist is according a special attention to the stillness, but also accords the same attention to the movement. Here is a quote from Dao de jing in my translation 孰能濁以靜之徐清﹖孰能安以動之徐生Who is able by stiring in stillnes to slowly been cleaned?Who is able by becoming calm by movement to revive slowly”. I will not tell the complete sense of this phrase but from this translation we can make a conclusion:the movent is giving the revival to us,not the stillness. So the “mastery of stillness” doesn't exist without binding to the “mastery of movement”, the real meaning of this is very different from the stereotypes. The “mastery of movement” is not the wushu. In taoism both “masterys” are important, the focus of one of that masterys are showing the lack of knowledge.
The third delusion is that in taoism there is a “mastery of movement”.
The mind of an ordinary man is perceiving such phenomenon as wushu as a kind of “mastery of movement” . If someone is moving well that he has a “mastery of movement”, but if we'll think like that we can say that dancers also have this mysterious “mastery of movement”. Chinese tradition doesn't contain such “systems” with such “mastery”.In wushu there is no “mastery of moving” but there are instructions on the combining movement and stillness. For example in taijichuan 动静之机 taiji is the mechanism of the movement and stillness, and there is a statement in the basic text of xyngyiquan that states the following 学者要得真消息全在动静两字间 pupils should master the purest, all the changes are contained in two characters which are movement and stillness.
As we can see this delusion has nothing to deal with the real wushu.
In conlusion: those who want to gain knowledge about the taoism and wushu should read this article in order not to make mistakes.
P.S Before posting I have seen this lies about taoists schools
“if you knew the history of Quanzhen, you would know that there are seven schools of Zhen Dao in China.
initially they were collectively known as "Seven School of Zhen Dao" (七真道派 or 北七真道派)
You can check this information on the Chinese Internet.
I plan to write big article regarding this topic. ”
In fact the real meaning 七真道派 is The Seven Schools of seven perfect man. 七真 are the seven disciples of Wang Chunyang. And of course these 7 schools of zhen dao have never existed.
Author D.Artemyev"
LaoziDao вне форума   Ответить с цитированием
Старый 20.04.2015, 10:15   #10
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Thank you very much great post!
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